Glow Wild

The Next Mile: Finding Courage in the Unknown with Burr Purnell

• Nicole Gaitan • Episode 15

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In this deeply inspiring conversation, Burr Purnell shares his journey—from corporate executive to ultrarunner, devoted dad, and social-impact leader—inviting listeners to ask themselves: What leap of courage are you holding back?

  1. The Courage to Pivot
  2. Burr recounts how his daughter’s innocent comment—“I’ve only ever lived in this one room”—sparked a life-altering decision. He and his wife decided to resign from their stable careers, homeschool their daughters, and travel the world doing service work with nonprofits like Yoga & Sport for Refugees  .
  3. Ultrarunning as a Path to Self-Discovery
  4. A seasoned ultramarathoner, Burr treats extreme running as more than sport—it’s spiritual exploration. He believes races lasting 50‑100 miles force you to “live on the edge” and ask bigger questions about purpose and resilience  .
  5. Vulnerability & Leadership
  6. In a 2020 interview, Burr emphasized urging men—and all people—to embrace vulnerability. “There is great power in being vulnerable,” he explained, warning against toxic machismo that distances us from ourselves and others  .
  7. Marrying Creativity & Social Good
  8. As VidMob Gives’ Director of Social Good, Burr leverages digital video to amplify nonprofit missions—supporting causes like charity: water and Movember. They raised over $20K in 13 days for refugees in Lesvos, Greece, funding gym equipment and athletic gear for youth  .
  9. Lessons from Mistakes & Staying Grounded
  10. With trademark humility, he laughs about accidentally sitting in someone else’s seat on a Virgin Atlantic flight—an event that reminded him not to take life (or himself) too seriously  .

🌱 Key Takeaways

  • Vulnerability is Strength: Burr urges listeners—especially men—to shed masks and show emotional authenticity.
  • Messy Transformations are Worth It: Career shifts and lifestyle changes rooted in courage can lead to richer, more meaningful paths.
  • Suffering With Purpose: Ultramarathons aren’t just endurance tests—they’re journeys into identity, purpose, and connection.
  • Accessible Creativity: Tech tools (like VidMob) can magnify nonprofit stories and catalyze real-world change.
  • Keep Your Heart Open: Small, everyday moments (like his daughter’s question) can reframe life’s trajectory.

🔗 Notable Features

  • Authority Magazine Interview (2020):
  • Burr candidly discusses the importance of emotional honesty in men, calling out “machismo” and encouraging support for others  .
  • TEDx Berkshires Talk (2023):
  • Delivers a heartfelt narrative on aligning the mind and heart to transform personal and professional life  .
  • TEDx YouTube Video:
  • Explores how a moment of alignment shifted his entire trajectory  .

🎧 Quotes Worth Highlighting


“There is great power in being vulnerable… hiding behind a mask… fuels anger and even hatred, igniting a ‘machismo’ in men which distances them from who they are at best.”  


“I’ve never been more alive than running a 100‑mile race… the experiences and lessons I learned… have enhanced my life in innumerable ways.”  





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SPEAKER_00:

Hi, I'm Nicole and you're listening to Glow Wild. Hey everyone, and welcome back to Glow Wild, the podcast where purpose meets passion and stories spark real change. Today's guest is someone whose entire life and career embodied the power of purpose-driven work. Burr Purnell is a creative visionary, a changemaker, and a storytelling strategist who doesn't just talk about impact, he builds it into everything he touches. From leading global creative campaigns to launching philanthropic arms of major tech companies, from supporting refugees in green Thank you so much. And we've

SPEAKER_01:

mostly swim upstream in our lives as it is. We really have never been kind of normal in how we either raise our children, live our lives, the food we eat, the places we visit, and the connections we make. But as I said at the start, I'm just a normal human being. And like everybody else, I don't find myself to be special in any way. I put attention towards things that I'm interested in, and I go pretty deep into those things when I commit to doing something. I don't do it halfway. Sometimes maybe to a fault, but that's just how I'm wired.

SPEAKER_00:

I think a lot of professionals that get to your level are wired like that. It is almost a fault, but you also make an impact. So tell us how you got into branding and what made you interested in that field initially.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, in the beginning, I went to school at Northeastern University to study graphic design. And throughout that process, this is in the early 90s, I just learned more and more about the ability of something as small as a logo mark to make an impact on somebody in their life and their lives and their belief system. And that intrigued me. I thought it was really cool that a single mark or multiple marks, logos, brand icons, or whatever it might be, are really powerful in that they distill down the company's values and what they stand for through design. Absolutely. Which is just what can be more powerful than that. It's like the simplest element of a brand should be conveyed through their mark. So that intrigued me early on. And in the early 90s, I think I'm right in saying this, like Adobe started and, or maybe late eighties, but I remember working in illustrator, like 1.0 and Photoshop 1.0 at school in our lab. And our lab was, you know, in Ryder hall and Northeastern university. It was, it was pretty cool. And I, I was in there, you had to sign up for the computers. It wasn't like you're bringing your computer home and working on it at all. You signed up for these giant CRTs you're working on. And, uh, And it intrigued me. My mother was also a graphic designer at a place called Horticulture Magazine. And so the work she was doing was much different than what I was doing, although in theory they were the same, but she was doing paste-up work and just starting to use the computer in a way that was going to be for desktop publishing. Her being in the space was intriguing for me and to watch what she was doing. But I really jumped in with both feet to graphic design, got my degree in graphic design. Branding and marketing kind of fell into line after that, where I would freelance or work at agencies that were really steeped in both those disciplines.

SPEAKER_00:

Great. And how did you pivot into bringing your knowledge and branding to the projects you do now, especially your philanthropic endeavors?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You know, I see life as this continuous journey and it's always interesting to take kind of one career path and pivot to another. And

SPEAKER_02:

I

SPEAKER_01:

mean, we'll talk about this a little later, but we did this big trip as a family and before the trip, I was 100% working in advertising. After the trip, I started working and helping run a nonprofit in New York City. That's where the philanthropic work came in. I worked with hundreds of nonprofits around the world. What I was able to do was to help these nonprofits distill the essence of their brand into short form content. I think a lot of times, nonprofits in general have so many things to say, they try to say them all by saying them all, the message is lost.

SPEAKER_00:

I hear that.

SPEAKER_01:

And so what I'd like to say to that is that in what I learned through the years, there's something called an SMI. And for us in advertising, people in marketing probably know what it is. It's the single main idea. And what really is the single main idea that you want to convey? Not the two or three, Right. Not the seven.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, this is the first time I'm hearing of the SMI and I,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

it is so important in life and especially for a nonprofit to distill everything down to one idea. Like you started this for a mission. Let's focus on that. That's great.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, a lot of people forget that. And then again, as I said, they, they will then try to say three or four things and they'll all be lost as well. So saying the one thing I want is to get the, 26 people at this fundraising lunch on Saturday morning. Right. That's my idea. That's the one thing I want. Because how are you going to do that, right? Yeah. What are the steps to get there? Right. And not that you want those 26 people and this and that and that and that. I mean, this and that message, you lose it entirely. But if you hear 26 people Saturday morning to go to this luncheon or pick up trash on a beach in Southeast Asia or to who knows what, raise$100 each, whatever it might be, that one message needs to

SPEAKER_00:

be conveyed. So let's go back to your trip that you took with your family. I remember you preparing for it, getting all the clothing needed, all the supplies. Was it that trip that really brought you into this different life mission? Or had you always had this pull towards the nonprofit sector?

SPEAKER_01:

So I've always thought that there was something more than what I was doing. And I should be doing something more than I'm doing professionally. I didn't really know what it was. And in 2017, I At the end of that year, I picked up my daughter, Ellie, at a soccer practice and brought her home. We got home, walked in our modest house in Marin County when we were living in California, and she turned and looked at me and said, Dad, we're in her room. She goes, Dad, I've only ever lived in this one room. And my response to that was... oh shit, I'm doing something wrong. I'm not giving this kid, my child, the opportunity to have a bigger life, to experience more.

SPEAKER_00:

Interesting because I find so many children of divorce like me have been upset that I didn't get that one single home. So that is really interesting to see that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's a good point. I, I've never thought of it that way. My wife and I are married, but I, my feeling was that I had had two seminal moments in my life, um, that, I feel, shaped me, who I have become. One of them was circumnavigating the North Atlantic Ocean. The other was growing up on a farm backwoods in Maine in the 70s with no electricity or running water. Wow. And those two things, I think, have taught me to be self-reliant and I felt at the point at this point in 2017 that my kids weren't on an even closer trajectory like that and I wanted them to have something that they would always remember that would be seminal to their life that would help shape them and it was then that we thought when I said to Jane I told her this happened between Ellie and I and I said I think we need to do something big we need to do something different and I had felt a feeling in my stomach that work wasn't as fulfilling as I wanted it to be. And she nodded and she said, okay, well, maybe we can go to Greece for a couple weeks and decompress. And I said, no, that's not it. It's something bigger than that. And she said, well, what about a month? And I'm like, no, I don't think it's bigger than that. I think it's

SPEAKER_02:

a

SPEAKER_01:

really sizable change in our life. Maybe I need to quit my job and do something different. And maybe we need to do a... Big family trip.

SPEAKER_00:

And Ellie was how old at this point?

SPEAKER_01:

Ellie's 14. Gwen's 11. Okay. Just maybe even just 11. And so within six weeks, Nicole, I mustered up the courage to quit my job.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

January 4th, I told my then boss, Matt Query, I had to move on, do something else. It wasn't where I was working. I loved where I was working, but it was something inside of me that needed to change. And how long had you been there at that point? Not that long, maybe three years or

SPEAKER_00:

something like that. But still, it's a big deal. Yeah, it was a

SPEAKER_01:

big deal. Jane... quit her job as well. She was working on creating documentaries with a good friend of hers. Um, we rented out our house for two years, pulled our kids out of school and went on a 282 day service trip around the world.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

And it was what we needed to do to shake up our lives, um, and to give our kids a different perspective on the world. It's just about

SPEAKER_00:

to say you took the word out of my mouth. Yeah. Perspective. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And lead and lead a life with purpose.

SPEAKER_00:

Um,

SPEAKER_01:

and that brought us to a place and an experience multiple places and multiple experiences that gave us perspective on how and who we are right and how we show up and I think traveling is the great equalizer because when you get out there and see and meet other people and other cultures you have a different appreciation for them

SPEAKER_00:

absolutely and How is it for the girls going into this at 11 and 14, seeing this side of the world, something they're not accustomed to, but now they're very, you know, involved with everything that you do and passionate. I see it in them. It's amazing. What was their initial reaction?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we're not going.

SPEAKER_00:

Really?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Initially they said, Yeah, we're not going. We're going to stay with our friends.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01:

And we're going to stay with Mirabelle and Abby, which was Gwenny's best friend and Ellie's best friend, and their parents. And so Jane and I kind of said, okay, all right, go ask their parents and see if it's okay. Right, right. Yeah, that's going to work. A year-long sleepover. And they quickly realized. And we said, listen, we're your parents, and we're going to do this. this as a family. This is the right time to do it. And we know it's going to be hard. There's no question about it. There's going to be things that we don't even know that we're going to have to deal with that are going to be hard. That's what life is about. It's not about always living or doing the easy things. And I think people that live that way don't get as much out of life perhaps as they could.

SPEAKER_00:

I want to dive deeper into that because it is something I've noticed is you can take the easy path, be comfortable, but you're always yearning for more. And I find probably most people are in that space right now. What would be your advice for someone in that space to break the mold, to be like, I am, we all have a talent or a purpose that we can fulfill.

SPEAKER_01:

So I, I think it comes down to the individual's willingness to be courageous, to be courageous and to live on the edge. I believe, and my kids believe, actually my daughter's 20s, The title of her college essay is My Education, E-D-G. Amazing. Education, E-D-G. Very,

SPEAKER_00:

very smart.

SPEAKER_01:

And they've both certainly adopted that. I'll talk about this a little more, but when you live back from the edge, life is easy. And things, it's not like it's comfortable, but it's easier when you're not challenging yourself, when you're doing the normal routine, daily shopping here, shopping there, meeting your friends here, not meeting new people. People, not creating new experiences in a way that's going to shape who you potentially can be or your best self. This is when you get stuck in a rut. Right. And you don't develop new and exciting parts of yourself that you don't even know exist.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But if and when you're willing to or one is willing to trust, have the courage to trust that you step over that edge. That you'll be caught. That you'll be okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

That things will turn out just in a magical way. I mean, really, I truly believe it's like where magic happens is when you jump off the edge.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. I compare this kind of life shift to going to college for the first time. You're scared. You don't know anyone there. Yeah. But it is the most engaging, unique perspective that you have at that age. And... After college, we don't have many opportunities like that ever again, unless you create them. And I love the way you put that. And I'm thinking he has two daughters in college and Gwenny is just going to be, it's going to be great, but she's already had these experiences that most kids have not. And I love that. So I do want to get into, before we talk about family, because I have a lot of questions about parenting. I want to discuss with you how you started ultra running and what was the purpose behind that and what drove you

SPEAKER_01:

well one of your questions you sent to me think about which I have thought about is the paradox between high performance and presence and it's a good question and I appreciate the question and in my head I didn't really have an answer to it when I first started thinking and then it came to me that the performance part is is is the exhale of a breath

SPEAKER_02:

okay

SPEAKER_01:

and the presence part is my inhale and they, you can't have one without the other. It's my life exists. They coexist. And with the exhale is where I push myself, um, to extremes, or at least my own extremes are different than other people's extremes, um, to, to be able to figure out how to perform at a really high level. I really like this analogy. The goal is where I want to get to. Right. Yeah. Um, and then, The inhale is where I'm introspective, where I listen. Listen to myself. Listen to my breath. Listen to others. Right. Because you can take this to think about it for, you know, the exhale could be how I am leading a group of people at a nonprofit or it's some coaching thing I'm doing with my kids team or whatever it might be. And then the exhale. Sorry. The inhale is is how I'm connecting with people or listening to people or slowing down my own breath to to observe. And so I know I didn't. know or think about that when I started my ultra career. And my ultra career really started as an accident. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

how did you accidentally start running hundreds of

SPEAKER_01:

miles? I've kind of been a athlete my whole life. I wouldn't ever say I was a runner. As I was a young kid, I played hockey, soccer, and baseball. Running wasn't something that I was necessarily drawn to, although you run a lot in soccer, not so much in baseball. I started doing triathlon in California and enjoyed it, although I didn't swim well. I ran okay, and I biked pretty well. Then one of my friends that I made early on in California signed up for this race called the Quadruple Dipsy. And the single dipsey is one of the oldest running races, I believe, in the country, actually.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, interesting. I'll have to look these up. But the quadruple dipsey sounds terrible. It is terrible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But it goes from Mill Valley, California to Stinson Beach. The

SPEAKER_00:

single dipsey. Oh, my gosh. So the quadruple

SPEAKER_01:

dipsey over basically the side of Mount Tam.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

And the quadruple is that four times. and

SPEAKER_00:

uh so you're just back and forth back and forth back and forth so mount tamalpais if you're not familiar look it up it's a pretty big mountain in mill valley and wow

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

four times

SPEAKER_01:

totally wow and so my friend told me about it. I'd never even been on the Dipsy trail before. And he had said, Oh, she signed up. I just signed up for it. And I was looking for a challenge and thought, sure, I'll sign up for this and see what happens. Um, and I got on the wait list and I was maybe number 17 or 18 and, um, I'm driving to Tahoe and I got on the wait list and I'm thinking I'll never get in this race. That's just too many people in front in front of me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And, um, the starts up in September, the race is, the weekend after Thanksgiving or Thanksgiving after that Thursday. And, uh, so it's a few months away and I figured I'd get on that trail and do some, do some climbing. And, uh, and I did, when I returned from Tahoe, I went on that trail and ran it and thought, wow, this is really, really hard. This is not going to be an easy race. And we, um, the race arrives and, uh, My buddy who tempted me or suggested I do this was supposed to be there to toe the line as well, and he was a no-show. He's like, oh, yeah, right. I can't do that race because I got too busy with work and didn't, you know, I was like.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, thanks for reaching out, letting me know.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, Brian, you've got to be kidding me. You can't do the race. So he didn't do it. I did it. There's about 300 or so people, maybe 285 or 315. And I came in 15th. of all these runners, which are like

SPEAKER_00:

this insane race. You really hadn't been training for this. I mean, you'd hit the hill, but you're not months into training. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

this isn't like a world-class group of guys running it. They're mostly locals, but there have been some very, very fast runners that have done it. So I do a respectable time on the course, and it's like a 50K or something. Maybe it's 28 miles or something like that. And so I think that the success... I mean, 15th is pretty good. It

SPEAKER_00:

is really great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think my success there was a bit of an eye opener for me to think, well, maybe I've got a little more to learn here from myself because I was really suffering from On that route, it was a five hours and 15 minute run or something like that through almost 10,000 feet of vertical. I think it's 9,000 or somewhere in that range. So I stumbled it in that way. Somebody, you know, attempting me to do the run and then doing it and being stood up at the start line.

SPEAKER_00:

So how does it feel to, you know, you go through that suffering. I understand it. I used to be a runner and a racer. You're suffering through it. But there's something at the end where you feel great. It's not just the endorphins, but it's the sense of accomplishment. How did you feel at the end of that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I felt proud. That's great. Yeah. Proud of my accomplishment there. Proud of myself. Proud also that, and this was really new to me, but I had done that Almost entirely alone. Exactly. My training and I didn't know anybody else in the race. And I thought to myself, I remember thinking, well, if I do this pretty decent run just by myself, I wonder what I could do with other people.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, and getting other people in the mix and training with other people and building community. So that was what was intriguing for me. So the result of having done well felt good. But my interest was piqued because I saw all these other people in the race that knew each other and had done it like 10 times or 15 times, the quad dipsy. And I thought, that's actually what I want. I want to be part of something that's about the community as at the core of it. I love that. And it's not individual running, runner training to do one thing that's masochistic. And so that's where I met all my running buddies. That's great.

SPEAKER_00:

And have you done that race again?

SPEAKER_01:

I've done it. I think I've done it eight times. maybe 10 times. That's amazing. I did it every year. Yeah, you lived right there. I haven't done it since 2018 or somewhere like that, but I did it many, many, many times. That's great. I have some friends that have done it almost 25 or 30 times. Wow. It's the race.

SPEAKER_00:

And before I get into my next question, what other ultra races have you done that you have been proud of? I'm sure you're proud of every single one you complete, even if it's not what you were looking for time-wise.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So, For me, I've done a lot of ultras, but for many others, it's like just a drop in the hat. But I think I've entered somewhere in the area of 20 to 30, maybe 35 ultra races. An ultra is anything over 26.2, right? I've done way too cool. All of these mostly out in California, way too cool. Sonoma 50. 50 miler, Tahoe 50 miler. I've done the Quad Dipsies I just talked about, Headlands 50. I've paced at Western States. I've never run Western States, but I've paced there many times. Oh, that's great. I did the San Diego 100 in San Diego.

SPEAKER_00:

I have heard David Goggins did that as his first race just to get into another race. That is no joke. Is that

SPEAKER_01:

no joke? It was a tough

SPEAKER_00:

one.

SPEAKER_01:

It was only 108 degrees with the heat index that day. Oh, you know. It was a slog. Just a slog.

SPEAKER_00:

lovely lovely day so which one was the hardest for you mentally because I know the physical part tends to be we think it's our body breaking down but it's really our mind breaking down yeah do you was there a moment where or in one of these races that you really stood out to you where you were like, how do I get my mentality back?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um, yes, there's, there are multiple, um, to, to come to mind at headlands 50. It was one of my first that I did and begin by saying that I'm terrified. I mean, terrified of snakes. And I

SPEAKER_00:

think the whole Norton family is.

SPEAKER_01:

And, um, I remember being so fatigued and so out of it that I wanted to, to find a snake, like to find a rattlesnake to bite me so that I could finish the race. I could be done with the race. I got bit by a snake. I'm out.

SPEAKER_00:

I know that feeling. Looking

SPEAKER_01:

for excuses. I literally began looking for on the trail rattlesnakes. I was going to bend down and let it bite me and go from there. I can remember I was climbing out of Tennessee Valley in Marin County and I just had this moment of despair and darkness and just fatigue. And I was, I don't know, 38 miles. And within a few minutes I was out of it and on top of the mountain again. And

SPEAKER_00:

what do you think brought you out of it?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I don't, I don't know physiology, physiology very well or why the mind goes there. I just have experienced it many times, but there's just this, um, highs and lows in racing and in running that are just super telling about where you are mentally. It might be that I got to the top of the hill I didn't think I could get to when I was feeling like my mind was going to quit. And then when you just keep on going and keep putting one foot past the next, you do get to the top and you just don't quit on yourself. You don't ever quit. And so that's the mentality that I think you need to have in life and in ultra racing.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. So I will tell you as a high school athlete, it was my weakest state of mentality. If I messed up a little bit in a ski race or, you know, wasn't going fast enough in my running races, I gave up. You could see it in my body language. So in the New York City Marathon, 15 miles in, I'm staying with the nine minute pacers and I am happy as a clam. I am feeling great. And then I get tripped. My mind went to, oh my God, they did that on purpose. Obviously not. I mean, there's so many racers, but I had to literally like snap my fingers, snap myself out of it because I was about to start crying and just, give up I was going to fake an injury just like you were talking about and go to the med tent and not finish and I was like no this is an important thing to you you're going to get this done But it is hard to snap out of that. I really wanted to just go to the med tent, cry, and quit, and wallow in my own, I don't know. Today,

SPEAKER_01:

you wouldn't be that happy

SPEAKER_00:

with yourself, would you? No. It was the most amazing experience ever. I didn't get my nine-minute mile paced the entire way like my goal, but I finished, and that's what's important. How do you see ultra running as a metaphor for the purpose-driven work that you do?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I see the running... as slow and steady. I do not run fast. I just don't, I'm not built that way. There might be some sections that I scoot along quicker than other people, but in general, I don't run fast. And I really like the old adage, I think it's an African proverb, that if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go with others. It's basically the paraphrase of it. And so in my work that I do, I want to go lift others. I want to lift people. I want to practice kindness. I want to give people what they deserve. I want to be a good listener. And so I think what I was talking about before, in a few minutes ago about, um, you know, performance and presence. This is really the presence part of, of that. And the nonprofit work that I've been fortunate enough to do is really, truly about listening to people's problems, um, and helping them come up with solutions.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And, um, when you're out ultra running, um, for, um, I don't know, 10 hours or 16 hours or 32 hours or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

There's no joke. I mean, you're listening to a lot of problems and you're feeling and experiencing a lot of problems yourself. Yeah. And so there's a correlation there, right? How am I going to help my friend on the trail with me? I'm feeling okay, but he's not or she's not. And I'm not going to put my race above theirs because we're both out here together. Yeah. And to me, that's, again, the community building part of it and why I'm drawn to ultra running is that it's a place where people lift each other up.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that.

SPEAKER_01:

And are there to support each other. So working in the nonprofit space is where we are as humans to lift each other up and to make each other's lives better in a way and leading with kindness and generosity and purpose. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

So I spoke about in your intro the nonprofits that you are working with. And did you actually found a nonprofit when you were on that big trip with your family?

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, not really. The first place we went in Greece on the island was the running coach for a small org called Yoga and Sport with Refugees.

SPEAKER_00:

That's the one I'm thinking

SPEAKER_01:

of. Yeah, and so I didn't found that at all. A woman named Estelle Jean founded that, and she's still very, very much a part of it. I'm one of the original board members or advisory board members for the nonprofit still to this day. But we... started working with them, helping with refugees that had come, like literally walked from Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, across Turkey, to then get on a small inflatable raft to get themselves to Greece. And this was the beginning of our work with non-profits, and personally mine with non-profits. Everything else before that in my career had been for for-profit organizations. And It's also what kind of gave us the wake up call and my children included about how people are treated and how fortunate we have been in our lives to be in a position where we're in compared to many, many other millions, billions of other people.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. You just can't

SPEAKER_01:

experience it unless you experience it. You don't know. Like you just don't. don't know to a level of which people suffer when you're, you know, out seeing them walking for five miles to go get a great food or waiting for five hours to get breakfast or lunch or dinner.

SPEAKER_00:

That's what they do. That's their existence. I have traveled and have seen some of that and it is eye-opening. I mean, I believe my first international travel was at 21 and to Central America and it's eye opening. My travel journals are things I would never write now because I haven't been constantly going into that. I wanna serve others, I always have, but I think that travel and seeing the world from a different perspective is so important. It

SPEAKER_01:

will be by far, in my opinion, the biggest gift you'll be able to give to

SPEAKER_02:

your children

SPEAKER_01:

is to leave our country, and go experience other countries at a deep, deep level. There's just, I mean, of course, there are places here which people don't have the privilege, but in general, living in this country is a privilege. But go... let them experience other cultures.

SPEAKER_00:

And it's a widely taken for granted privilege that we don't even know. And so I think it's so important that you did that with your daughters. I do want to get into your parenting and your legacy. I am just shocked and proud of the way your two daughters have turned out. They are wise beyond their years. And I heard Gwenny talking out on the porch today and her education, her education, eloquent way of speaking. I mean, she just knows so much and it's incredible. And it is kudos to you. I know. Well, I've got a

SPEAKER_02:

partner.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, kudos to you and your wife, Jane, of course. So you've raised two fiercely independent daughters who are now carrying forward your mission of social and environmental impact. What values or practices do you think had the biggest influence to make them latch on to your interests in this? Well,

SPEAKER_01:

what's interesting, I thank you, by the way, for saying that. I think... Parenting, really? Seriously, it's my most important job. It is, yeah. Without question. And it's yours as well. I assume you think that. And I approach parenting because it's so hard.

SPEAKER_00:

It is the hardest job in the world. Yeah. And you're always wondering if you're messing up.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Every little mistake or

SPEAKER_01:

decision. We could go

SPEAKER_00:

deep on all the mess ups I've done. I've done a

SPEAKER_01:

billion

SPEAKER_00:

mess ups. We all have. We are doing the best with the tools we were given. That's

SPEAKER_01:

what

SPEAKER_00:

I always say.

SPEAKER_01:

So I try to think or I hope that my superpower in parenting is one simple thing and that is consistency. The more consistent I am in my message and how I deliver that message, I think the more effective I am. Absolutely. I don't know. I think, yeah, I'm, I'll be really curious to know if you talk to my girls and, you know, in this context with, they would say, I think that they would say that that's, pretty consistent and I have this thing so that I say what I mean and I mean what I say. And it's true. And it's not that I don't ever admit that I was wrong about something or that I'm unwilling to negotiate or see someone else's perspective. But I try to be just as consistent in delivering my message based on my values. And my values are based on basic kindness. for one another. I

SPEAKER_00:

was going to ask, so what, how would you describe your core values in a sentence?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. In a sentence, I never thought about it in a sentence, but just being kind is the To yourself and to others. Golden rule. Yeah. Just be kind to yourself. Be kind to yourself and to others. And it's, you know, I think what my girls have embodied in many ways. And, you know, they've had plenty of arguments and fights with each other. But when I observe them with people like you or my aunts and their great aunts or friends or parents of friends, I'm almost in tears about how they hold themselves and the quality of character that they are delivering. And then sincerity about the questions they're asking and the interest they have in these conversations. And maybe you heard some of that today. I

SPEAKER_00:

did, and I was in awe.

SPEAKER_01:

Just

SPEAKER_00:

very proud for you. Very excited to hopefully... teach my daughters the same

SPEAKER_01:

lesson. I'm sure you and Corey will. But it really does start there with consistency and kindness. And then the other most important thing that I believe is we've got two ears and one mouth. And we should use them in that proportion. Listening, I think, is a form of kindness. Because people often need to be heard. And I think that's our job in a way is to listen to those people that need to be heard. They could be struggling with being insecure or having family issues or marital issues or whatever it might be. And just showing up and listening, I think, are two qualities that the girls have because I'm hoping that Jane and I have modeled that in a way that has been extremely effective. And believe me, by the way, these kids are not turning out the way they are because of Just me. I mean, Jane is a super human.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I am, you know, praising both of you. It's not just you. You just happen to be here today. But are there any challenging moments or maybe one challenging moment you've had raising the girls that you said, oh, my God, I don't know if I can do this. What am I going to do? I don't have an answer for this. I don't.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well, middle school was hard. I hear. Yeah. Welcome to that one. Middle school was hard and I just, I didn't have my stride then. I was being consistent as I said I am, but I wasn't really present entirely to, I think my own I don't know, demons. I don't really know. I struggled through that. So there's not like one particular thing I remember happening. I'm sure the kids snuck out and this and that. Oh, sure. I'm not like a super disciplinarian guy. I'm just saying, well, here's what happened. I think this is probably the consequence for what we've got to do for sneaking out last night. But I'm also not a hypocrite. I snuck out.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, absolutely. We have to remember that. It is true. I know.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't really know if there was... One thing, Nicole, nothing's like sticking in my head right now. Yeah. But just that age range for my children, for my relationship with them was the hardest time. I love where they are right now. Oh, they're great. Young, strong, independent young women.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And they were great then. I think that, you know, even at two years old, they're searching for their independence. So they act out then.

SPEAKER_02:

Then

SPEAKER_00:

they go through it again at six where I feel like I have a teenager.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

finding independence, defiance. And so I know middle school is just so hard because you're going through hormonal changes

SPEAKER_01:

and

SPEAKER_00:

bullying and all these things. Even if you have a great group of friends, it's going to happen. And I foresee that being a really hard time for us. So in a world obsessed with outcomes, how did you give your girls The value of process and passion and meaning over performance, perfection or titles.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that came through my running, honestly. See, that's huge. I think that their observation of dad performing or being out there and recognizing that I'm choosing to struggle. Mm-hmm. Choosing to force myself, you know, running all through the night in the darkness with nobody around me and choosing to be uncomfortable training, you know, six days a week, 50, 60, 80 miles. I think that's this observed that. Right. And I think that they imbued that. And, you know, what's also interesting, I didn't mention this before, but Ellie has gravitated towards my career.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. I didn't know that. Marketing and

SPEAKER_01:

advertising. She's studying at BU. She's getting an advertising degree. And Gwenny has gravitated towards my passion of running. Wow. She runs track and she runs cross country. And my ultimate goal is to run an ultra marathon with her. So both kids have observed their dad. I haven't pushed either of them at all. I've just been... who I am. Um, and I'm not going to push anything on them. And if Ellie ends up having a successful advertising career, that's awesome. If she ends up pivoting and becoming a, I don't know, a director of human resources that, uh, you know, some startup or something great. If Gwennie, Takes to swimming. Great.

SPEAKER_02:

Great.

SPEAKER_01:

But I've just lived my life with the purpose and the values I have and the girls have observed them and taken to them.

SPEAKER_00:

That is so wonderful because I had read a book and it was discussing working women, working mothers, especially that we're not doing them a disservice by working.

SPEAKER_02:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

We are demonstrating what it is to be a strong person, although we hold on to that guilt of not being around as much as we could. But I do believe it gives them independence, and they see it. You're leading by example. I'm running, doing crazy things to my body to stay in shape, and I want them to see it. Actually, I had a little lesson the other morning. I wake up at 5.15, I do my workout at 5.30, and the girls will wake up. Mom, when are you going to be done? We need you. And so I had them come downstairs where I was. I said, this is a life lesson girls. You start and you finish. You don't stop. I'm not going to stop five minutes early for you. I'm going to get it done. And they're like, okay. So, I mean, there are teaching lessons everywhere, even if it's just something silly like that, but

SPEAKER_01:

yeah, that's really good.

SPEAKER_00:

I really don't want to keep you too long. Um, I just want to know what has been the most humbling lesson for you, either through the ultras or through your advertising career, the nonprofit mission. Is there one or multiple

SPEAKER_01:

things that stick out? We haven't touched on this, and we could probably do a whole session on this, but I think my kids' success and where they've gotten... to so far in their short lives is quite humbling in itself just for me to observe them. But what I'll say is that parenting is the most important thing that's happening in my life and having these children, but they are also my teachers. Like they are my ultimate teachers because they are in essence a reflection of who we are. And I tell them, both this and at their birthdays. I'll stand up and say something and remind them that they are my teachers. And I look up to them for that reason. And what they've taught me is not always easy. I am inherently a perfectionist, which is an incredible burden, actually. I mean, it comes with a lot of great attributes, but it's also quite burdensome.

SPEAKER_00:

It

SPEAKER_01:

is. Are you a perfectionist? Do you know?

SPEAKER_00:

I am. I have worked very hard to step out of that or this podcast would never have come to be. Don't have a website fully set up yet. But I was like, this has been a dream of mine since 2012. I have to take the leap or it will never happen.

SPEAKER_01:

And

SPEAKER_00:

it cannot be perfect.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I struggle with that now. all the time and I read books on it and I read or listen to podcasts about it and I I have therapy about it with my life coach and you know I sometimes wish that I would perform at a different level so that my kids would see me doing something differently or I had a a better career, or I had a better house, or I had a better car, or whatever it might be. I

SPEAKER_00:

understand that. None of that matters. None of it matters.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And so my kids are helping me recognize that. That is great. And that's just part of being human.

SPEAKER_00:

I do get that drive to want the material things by making life better. feel perfect, especially when you have children. You want them to experience the best that you have to offer. But what I have found, I want to write a book called You're Not a Shitty Mom. And it came out of the idea that I asked the girls, what makes you feel loved by me? Parker said, rubbing my back. Another kid said, my mom takes me shopping and buys me a Squishmallow. Like all these cute little things that It's not the grand gestures like going to Disney World or something big. It is just the small things. And so we have to remember that. We don't need a big house. They're happy in their house because it's their home. You need love. And love, yeah. Most importantly, love. And the ability to recognize when you've made a mistake and apologize for it, especially with your children. Do you have any closing remarks, any messages that you would like to share?

SPEAKER_01:

I think my values are what I live by, and I just want to share that I hope people live simply and live spreading love and kindness. And that really is the way forward for, I think, ourselves, our society in such a split and kind of controversial world we live in, or at least the country we're in right now. And I think people can do that with kindness and compassion. And as I've spoken about earlier, it's about listening to one another. We don't have to agree with each other. We just have to listen. And feel heard. And that's half the battle, I think, is people don't feel heard so that they put up a front about one thing or another. And that's no way to live. It's no way to sort of split society with the right or the left.

SPEAKER_00:

This whole polarity, I do see a lot of issues because people aren't listening. We don't have to agree with your opinion. Exactly. We may not want to be taught anything by their opinion, but we need... to listen to their perspective and hope that they will listen to ours. We're not trying to change their mind in any way, but anyone in the world, that's all they want is to be heard and know that you care. And

SPEAKER_01:

ask questions.

SPEAKER_00:

And ask questions. Ask

SPEAKER_01:

questions. So tell me more. Why is it that you feel this way or why is it you feel that way? I want to learn more. that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I want to learn from you.

SPEAKER_01:

I want to learn from you. Why you feel that way. But I want to learn about why you're feeling this way. And there's not enough of that. Clearly. We're just not there yet. Hopefully we will

SPEAKER_00:

be. I know. And finally, you made this huge, scary jump by quitting your job, taking this year-long trip with your family, kids still in school. What advice would you give to someone who's living comfortably, but they know they are destined for more. What is going to get them to take that next step?

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I don't know, but what other someone else is going to do to do that. But I just found the courage and I just felt in my heart that I wasn't living the life I wanted. Um, and it was too small. Like I wanted to live a bigger life. I wanted to live a life that had more impact that connected with more people that gave, um, uh, opened my kids eyes. I think maybe it'd be interesting if I didn't have kids, if I still would have done that, if I was just Jane and I were married together and you know, would we have quit our jobs and, you know, go off and travel the world? I don't know. It's not what happened, but I think because I felt so passionate about, um, my kids being able to experience the world and have the summer moment in their life. I was like, no, they're going to do that. I need to do this for them. And therefore I found the courage to do it for myself. Right. Um, and for, for, for our family. And I will say one thing that's a little bit sort of strange to say, but I think it's important to say it wasn't as if leaving was, uh, and not having a job was inexpensive. I mean, It actually was more affordable for us to leave Marin County and travel the world for a year than it was to stay in Marin County.

SPEAKER_00:

I understand

SPEAKER_01:

that. And pay my mortgage and pay all my bills and the cable and the cell phone and everything. We lived on not a third, but maybe just under half of what it cost. would have caused us to stay home. So people can do it if they want to go and figure it out. And then you have to have the courage to be able to say, I can get a job when I return. And I'm going to have this life experience. And I'm going to have that life experience. And I'm transferable. Right. Me doing that set me up for a new career in the nonprofit space when I got back, and that was amazing. And I obviously wouldn't have had that experience had we not had the courage to do something else and to take that jump and take the leap off the edge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I wish there was something we could say to those people who... obviously feel that desire to serve more, to have, they know they have a purpose, but they're not finding that courage. And I don't think we'll get to that answer today, but there,

SPEAKER_01:

it just know it's there. Like trust. You have to trust in the process of life and to know that, um, you will be, um, You'll be shocked about how remarkable life gets when you live on your edge. I just promise that. I mean, nobody's going to know me who listens to this podcast, but I promise you will be shocked about what you're going to experience when you go out of your comfort zone. Magic happens. It

SPEAKER_00:

does. And people will know you after this. My mission in this podcast is to bring everyday people's stories because all of our voices are... you know, they need to be heard and it's important that we tell our stories. So I really appreciate you being here today. You did wonderful. And I think I learned a lot and I'm excited for the future. Maybe we'll talk again. As you should be. Thanks, Nicole. Thank you. Thank you guys for listening to another episode of glow wild. I hope that this episode helped you. And if you know someone that needs to hear it, please share it. And like, subscribe, and rate and review. It really helps. Thank you so much and have a great day.

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Nicole Gaitan Felton

Host
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Burr Purnell

Guest